Reuben Wharmby of Furness Vale

Reuben  Wharmby was born in 1914 and lived in Canal Row where his mother ran a small general store. The shop was probably at number 7, in the middle of the row and had a good trade amongst passing boatmen. In the 1920s the business re-located to the house by the canal bridge, formerly the beerhouse The Jolly Sailor/Traveller's Call.  On leaving Furness Vale school, he bought a small lorry and established a fruit and vegetable round in the village and neighbourhood. 

In 1999, Bob Watkins conducted an interview with Reuben for the Imperial War Museum. He talks about his early life and about his wartime experiences. Occasionally, his wife, Alice, interjects.  This is our transcript of the recording:

                                              Furness Row / Canal Row, Furness Vale

Reuben Wharmby interview 1999

Reuben, can you just tell us your date of birth please, and where you were born?

12^th of August 1914

And you were born where?

Furness Vale, Derbyshire

and. Brothers and Sisters?

Two sisters

are they older than you?

One was born 14 years older than me

older than you.

And the other was 17 years older than me.

You didn’t have any brothers at all?

No

What did you dad do for work?

He worked at a printworks. You know, print cloth, he used to get rollers ready for printing.

And did your mum work at all?

No, she always had a little shop, she sold everything.

It was her business, her shop?

Yes, she sold everything.

Like a little general store?

A mini enterprise, a little general store

Yes

O.K.

What are your first memories, Rheuben, of early years?

Well, I was only educated at Furness Council School

And that was?

I left at 14

So your first memories are of schooldays?

Yes

So, what did you do at school? What were you good at?

Average

So you were average at school?

Yes

Was there anything that you liked doing more than others?

Well I was practical, I was good at joining and metalwork.

O.K. so you preferred that did you to maths and writing and reading and those things, O.K.

So, what about sports, did you do sports at all?

No time, I were always working when sports were on

When did you start working then?

I started at a joiner’s shop , I were only there six months and they went bankrupt. Not because of me though. And they went bankrupt. And then – I got a job in a wireworks, making car seats and I used to hook on car springs and then when they thread em in netting you used to squeeze that hook to and it held thing in. But my hands were green and full o’ cuts so my mother said you’d best leave there. So she bought a horse and cart and some greengrocery and sent me out selling that.

Lets go back to your first job for a minute with the wire. How old were you when you first did that job?

I’d be about sixteen

So that was your first job after leaving school?

After apprentice joiner

Yes, that’s right. Second job after leaving school

So now, your mum’s bought you this em…

Horse and cart

Horse and cart. With some vegetable and she sends you out with the horse and cart selling them. What, just around the streets?

Well, there were a lot of villages. I must go all around the villages

Did you have to shout out anything?

No, No, I had customers when I knocked on door they come out and knew. They were more or less, regular.

Well, how did you get your customers first of all.

I had to knock on doors there before I could get em going.

So how long did you do that for?

I did that for about twelve months and then I bought a bull nosed Morris. Do you remember them? And it had a flat on. So I did away with the horse and cart and had this motor

What, a flat back to it, like a pick up truck?

Well, they were them, a Morris Minor but they had a proper chassis on. So you chop cab off and put planks on, and boards and made a little flat

How old were you when you bought that Bullnose Morris then?

I were about seventeen. (you could drive - wife)I could drive, I learned myself drive

How old were you when you learned to drive then?

Seventeen

I’m not sure whether you can. Can you get a license at seventeen?

1933 I had a license.

O.K.

I’ve got it upstairs.

So you must have made some money or earned some money out of this horse and cart vegetable business to be able to buy a car.

Yes, well my mum were helping me

Right. So now. You sound as though you are quite well set up now

And then after that me mother bought a brand new lurry, a brand new one

A brand new which?

Lurry, a ton Morris and it had gold writing at doors ‘through to colour is’ and it had a board across thing and it had a hood on and a sheet, everything, and it was only £269

I’ve got bell upstairs

Yes. Now you’ve got two vehicles then

Well, only use this one, this ton one.

What year was this Rheuben?

Well, it was just before 1940 ( you got married in 1937, you had lurry then – wife) Yes 1937

This is about 1937?

Yes

Then you hadn’t met Alice yet, or had you?

Well, Had I met you then? (addresses wife)

(Yes, oh yes, when you bought that lurry, yes – wife)

She were lucky, there were a lot after me.

(It would probably be 1936 when you had that lurry – wife)

Yes, there were a lot after you because you were a successful business man at this time weren’t you?

O.K. So you had met Alice than and you got married in?

1937

And where did you live then?

We lived at Furness for about six months at me mother’s house, and then we moved to New Mills and we had a shop there, in New Mills. So we had that ‘till I was called up.

And you were called up in which year?

June 1940. And the stuff we had, butcher down t’road bought it all off us. You know, sauce and pears, and cream and all the shelf stuff, and paid us what we were selling it for. So we thought he were doing us a good turn. But when I used to come on leave, he had it all on a shelf covered up and he unveiled it about a year after

I see, so he kept it until the war started? He was very shrewd then wasn’t he?

So he sold all that at probably double what I sold them for but he were paying me what I was selling it for

So when you were called up in 1940, did you sell the two vehicles then?

No, no, my mother sold it while I were away.

Alice, she kept ringing up because she’d never been broke as a latin child died. So Alice had never been to t’market, so she couldn’t buy. So she kept ringing up and asking me and sergeant were trying to tell me how to fire a bren gun so I said “shut up and go back to your mother” (because in the meantime I’d had Brian you see - wife)

Yes, now that’s right, so you’d had a child at that stage?

Yes, So she shut up and went back to her mother. And then boss at bakehouse, where she’d always worked, come and asked her if she’d do part time. So she got a job part time. She only got 28 shillings for her and Brian. And I got five shillings.

You got five shillings in the Army ?

Yes, and you had to salute for it

So, when you were called up, where did you have to go and report to?

Blackpool

Blackpool, and what happened then

Well, we met Army on train and we said we’re going to Blackpool and well, i’m going, i’m going. as soon as I got on the station these doors opened “come on get out” lined us all up on platform and marched us out

What was it like to be in the Army do you think then at that stage

Well, I think we were all concerned because we weren’t used to it. Washing in cold water and shaving in cold water ( you were in tents weren’t you -wife)

You were living in tents at that time?

Oh ah we were in. There was a lot of huts but us were like, we were t’last so we were in a tent and I were always last on parade because we had to roll tents up all round. So I used to be a little bit lost every morning and we had a gas mask in one of them cardboard boxes and it was swinging round me neck

So when you went in and you reported, they gave you all your equipment did they?

Yes

So, what did you get?

A suit, tunic and trousers, a vest, greatcoat, glengarry

What’s a glengarry?

One o’them three corner hats

Ah yes, I know, and some boots, for walking? 10 Minutes 15

And boots, yes

And then you go. Where do you live, you life in the tents then

Yes

With other people presumably

Yes, there was about twelve in our tent

But this was in summer time wasn’t it?

Yes

So the weather wasn’t so bad.

No. So after we had been in and had six weeks training, we all lined up and you had to say what you did. I said I’m a driver so I go moved into transport.

Oh. all right

Now. Best thing they ever did

Oh yes, that’s right

And when I got there we had ordinary cars, civilian cars what had been confiscated. That sounds a good word doesn’t it. And we had to go and have a driving test and that bloke took me.

And this is your mate Ferguson, Joe Ferguson who became a very good friend of yours.

He always used to say who passed you?

And before that, before you had your situation driving, you had some training didn’t you?

Six weeks training, and then I moved into transport

What did the six weeks training consist of?

Well, taking bren gun to pieces and putting it together, and rifle, and bayonet, fixing all that

Bayonet

And sloping arms, you know, proper marching and stamping of feet

Was there plenty of that sort of square bashing, was there a lot of that?

Oh ah, we got a lot of that

They showed you how to salute did they?

Yes, I had to

What about weapons training. Did they give you any weapons training?

Well, only bren gun and rifle

You had to fire, what did you have to fire at?

We had targets at Rossall. We used to fire into the sea. Targets were there, we had to lie down and fire at targets.

What with the bren gun and rifle?

With the bren gun and rifle. I were t’rifle because we were separate men for bren guns.

You didn’t fire the bren guns?

No, well, I might have done once but there were men trained for that. We’d all had experience at taking them to bits and putting them together, but then he were a bren gun man and I were a rifleman

And were you any good at shooting?

Yes, (laughing) they were big targets

They were big targets, so you hit the big target did you?

Did you do any other training apart from the rifle and the bren gun?

Only square bashing. (you had to go on sand hills didn’t you– wife) Oh aye we had to drive on sand hills

I wondered whether you did any more training with weapons

No. not once we’d moved into transport

All we were doing then were maintenance and we must take all (legal fuelens) firing at Rossall. I used to go with em.

That’s where the targets were. The banks for the shooting

There’s a big collard there is there

Whereabouts is that then Reuben

Near Fleetwood. Between Fleetwood and Blackpool

And by this stage Dunkirk had happened

When did I go, what date, in’t Army (asks wife) You went in June(wife) June what? (About 20^th I think 1940 - wife) Yes 20^th June,

And do you remember anything about Dunkirk at that time?

No, No

So you are driving. What are you learning to drive at this stage then?

Well, at Blackpool we were training drivers. we were driving instructors Eric and all, we were driving instructors

Oh, I see, because you were an experienced driver

And then, we had a new lurry, a big un. I fetched it from where(asks wife) (Donnington – wife) Donnington. Sergeant took me down for it and I called at New Mills, coming back with this big lurry and next morning, bloke what drove ration wagon he said they had all windows open on canteen. Course, he goes past and knocks all windows off. So then they give me job and sergeant he said can you handle it all right so I finished up on t’ration wagon and I used to go to Preston, every day for rations

Did you learn to drive anything else at that stage or

Well, we had tracked vehicles and we had American vehicles. You had ooh wheel turned round about, I don’t know how many times before they got anywhere.

What, with tracks on?

No, no tracks. they’d a very. Wheel used to go round I don’t know how many times before they. Because they said “have a do at them” so when I got in and drove, and turned it, I were up again wall it wouldn’t go any farther you see. Anyway, we got used to em.

Then you said Carriers did you?

Then we had portee for t’ next. We had one gun in we wound it into the back of a portee they had a cover on and we would it in. They use them at Blackpool now for taking these people out on boat runs 16minutes

What, a sort of cable affair?

Yes, and it used to pull gun on

So, You’d been driving those, and then a Carrier?

And then er. We had them portees we went everywhere with we had to used to drive up hills like this with gun on t’back. We had a lot of experience that way. And then they did away with them and bought us these Carden Loyd Carriers

Carden Loyd which you started to drive or learned to drive at that stage

We we only drive with tillers. I like them better than wheel. A Carrier used to steer with a wheel but with tillers, you can do that quicker than what you can do this

It’s like with a tank is it?

Yes, levers. All it does is lock one wheel and other keeps riding

And did you start going to different places as your training had finished by this time then hadn’t it. Did you stay in the same place?

Well. I was still at Malton (You went from Squires Gate to Malton – wife) Yes Sqires Gate to Malton. (You were two years at Squires Gate – wife) And then we went to Malton. And you know that river what’s just flooded over. Have you seen it on television?

Derwent

Yes it flooded all Yorkshire. Well, that river, there were officer, I were lucky, I’d just joined that platoon and I were on guard and they got em all out and marched them to t’river and they said “right – jump in” and about six got drowned, really good swimmers; because all t’weed and things in t’bottom of thing got fastened to their equipment. There were a good swimmer from Blackpool and he were drowned

So what happened after that, did they say anything about it afterwards

Well, they moved t’officer what made it happen.

Moved him out of the way

And that’s where I come to …..…………... sergeant had me on me own and all people were watching me and he kept trying to make me slow march. I couldn’t slow march and Fernie couldn’t slow march; he was trying to train me in t’chalet and I couldn’t not slow march so I said “get out”. Just as I told him get out ………….. I said “just one more time sergeant”

But you never marched?

I never did it. They took me off that parade. They wouldn’t stand near me. If I went in middle rank they’d shove me away, because, every time I marched, I had everybody skipping, changing step , and they shoved me away. 19Minutes 20

You sound like the person that marches with his arms ……………...at the same time as his legs

I’ve done that but they shoved me away. They wouldn’t stand near me because I put em out of step and when I looked, everybody was skipping, getting back in step again.

Did you say something about the people that drowned in the river? Did you say something about training for a burial detail or something?

That’s what that slow march were for, to bury them people. Them both were sergeants, you know and they were good swimmers

Why did they ,the circumstances they drowned, why do you think that was? You said because of the weeds.

Weeds, got fastened under equipment. I mean they had full packs on you see and gaiters and heavy boots. Well, they just said “jump in”. He wouldn’t jump in, he didn’t jump

That’s Eric, your mate?

He soon stopped jumping them when he could see these others were struggling in t’water. He just got moved, he did. He just got on to t’bank and said “right – jump in”

Could they have taken different cautions do you think?

Well, they just drowned, they couldn’t get at em. I mean, they was fast with weeds. He wouldn’t know as that would have happened. He thought it was just a matter of swimming across. And it were a fast flowing river, you know that

But there was obviously some trouble after?

Oh aye. He got moved

Who was it, do you know?

No. I don’t know who he was

So that was in Malton. How long were you in Malton?

(You were in Malton 1942, because -wife) And when did I go away? (That were when I went over to….. that’s where you come to see me from Malton – wife)

1942 you were in Malton?

(Yes and then you went to Mere in Wiltshire – wife)

I was in Malton 1942 and then we went to Mere and then we went abroad from Mere

Where was abroad?

France ( You know you went Sittingbourne – wife ) Oh yes, Sittingbourne. We went to Mere. From Malton to Mere, and from Mere to Sittingbourne And Alice come and I got her fitted up and there was tanks and traffic all day (convoy all day – wife – D Day) No, It weren’t D Day 45 were it? ( It was when D Day, when it was after because I never heard from you – wife - and I went visiting) So it were D Day when they were all moving ( I went to Sittingbourne just before th’invasion and I went for t’weekend and on the Sunday morning, you got some leave and we walked all round and this convoy never stopped all day went through; then I went back home and I never heard from you and then I got a field card B A R, British Army of Rhine and it just said on “I am alright” - Alice)

So lets go back a bit there then Reuben because you mentioned Mere in Wiltshire. Do you remember what was happening there?

Well, we were training at all them, going out with Carriers and pulling gun and it were training. All them places, we were training

Special training for. Any specific training?

Well, you know, we had to go in fields and up hills and Action he what driving that big un, he couldn’t keep up with us and officer Allen played heck with him. He said “what’s to do with you, you mind guy. He said “Wharmby’s altered governors on them others “you see they’d only go so fast they’d all put governors on. I took seals off and altered them because you needed the power to rev up and we could handle ours and he couldn’t because he hadn’t enough power. So officer come to me he says “Get that Carrier altered of Action’s but don’t bloody tell anybody I’ve told you”

And all this is in Mere?

I think it was. Mere yes

And then you mentioned another place, You said Sittingbourne.

Yes, Sittingbourne. That’s where we went abroad from. We went to France from Sittingbourne.

We must be getting on now to maybe ‘43, ‘44 time

And we loaded Carriers onto railway wagons. We had to drive on t’railway wagon and turn em round

What did you think when you got the news? Or how did you get the news that you were going overseas?

We didn’t. I mean, we just went to docks. I mean they just said “right, get ready” They didn’t , nobody said where we were going they said that every time we were going on train. “Right, line up” so we just went and then we were at docks.

25Minutes 10

And what did Alice think with all this situation going on? War’s on, you’re going overseas, she’s got/ one child at this stage, or two? Had you got two children at this stage, or one?

One. We’d only one. Yes, we lost one. (He only lived 12 months. Born ‘42, he died ‘43 – Alice)

So, was Alice anxious about you possibly going abroad at this stage?

She didn’t know, she just knew me letters used to stop. ( I just went for this long weekend and said ta-ra and I came home and I never got any mail and I kept ……………. I can’t understand him not writing -Alice) I was busy pushing em back ( And then this little card came, and it said “I’ve been” - British Army of the Rhine and it just said “I am alright” and he just signed it – Alice)

O.K. So at Sittingbourne then, you are just loading up onto something. Where did you go to load up for?

Well, we had all the equipment there in t’cab. All t’shell boxes. I mean we just put so many in one carrier and so many in another and oil all guns an all that. We had to do maintenance. We had to waterproof em. We had a concrete thing made and when we waterproofed em we had to run through this water

To test them?

To test them for waterproofing. Well, mine went through alright, but being last off, it kept shoving it farther back so I finished up in deep water

This is later on when you get over there. Where did you go from when you finally got on a boat to go overseas?

(It were called Millwall – Alice) Millwall Docks

That’s London ?

Oh yes, we went from London

What sort of date would that have been Reuben? Any ideas?

(Well, it were 6^th June D Day -Alice – it wouldn’t be so long after you went) No about ‘43, ‘44 weren’ it? (in June, 6^th June D Day -Alice so it would probably be just before end of June when you went)

What do you remember when D Day happened Reuben? Did you get news from the newspapers?

No, we never heard anything. I don’t remember anybody saying anything about it

You’ve no memories of that at all? So the first you knew was when they said you were going and getting on boats and so on.

No I mean I didn’t know have to tell us all photos and what not because we were all training all time you see.

So, Millwall Docks you left from. It must be about the third week of June something like that

Yes

Because we know what time you had left to go to France and the day you arrived in France was about the 24^th, 25^th June. So what was the journey like over the sea?

Going across? Well we were all down in t’bottom and there were hammocks, we used sleep in hammocks, you know and Galdar he pulled knot and crashed down onto t’floor

Who did that?

Galdar to t’boat He were a good mechanic him. He wouldn’t start till he had warmed the spanners

All right, Seems strange. So what do you remember about going over, on the boat? Did you see anything

No, nothing at all. All the way over. We did see occasional, dead bodies, floating, but they were always face down. Now, when we got abroad and you saw all t’Germans dead it didn’t bother you at all but as soon as you saw some of the English lay down, you know, it come to you a bit stronger.

Bound to yes. Now is there anything else you saw on the way over?

No, only them bodies floating about because we were down, we were kept down in t’bottom. Well, we were told to keep down there.

And you were driving a Carden Loyd.?

Yes

And which unit were you with?

First Batallion Support Company

There were t’mortars in Support Company and bren gun carriers in t’Support Company and six pounders.

So you were down below. What happened then when you eventually had to go off and go ashore

Well. Get in t’Carrier. I don’t know if they lowered us down with Carrier. I think they did. They got us in to t’Carrier and they lowered us on to this like a pallet

You got into the Carrier first and then they lowered it down and then you go towards the beach presumably?

Beach. And this pallet thing. It had four motors on, one at each corner. Three of them had either been shot off, two of them had been shot off and it weren’t powerful enough so every time a Carrier ran off, it went back. So these motors.

END OF FIRST TAPE

So you're heading towards the beaches, you've just got off the boat you're heading towards the...

Yes, but they'd all gone. Between they'd pulled me out of water, I was on me own with these others what had sunk. There was tanks and other Carriers what had sunk beside me. So all them lot what could go had gone. I can't remember what happened but not long after, me carrier were ready and I think somebody come down for t'take me up to gun crew, and that's when Johnny Price was shot. He just put his gun out in position and B Company were patrolling and Johnny were on t'gun and he moved and this bloke just shot him. His wife had just had... No she hadn't seen em. Now Ted Hartley, his wife had twins and he didn't see em. I've got a passport for Rome before we went abroad and he didn't get one, so he never saw them twins.

Was he the first one that you knew who was shot in the Battalion?

No that were Johnny Price. From Liverpool

And that was just after you landed you say?

Yes, It were first position.

So when you came off the boat, your Carrier sunk or it carmenload with it

Carmenload

Carmenload sunk didn't it? That means it was put out of action.

I don't know if they put a new engine in but it weren't long before I were going.

So,however, somebody came along and..

And took me back to gun.

And all t'guns were in position.

Yes, this was just on the edge of where the beaches were.

You see, as soon as they stopped, gun crews jump out and unhook gun and then they had to do it... but I didn't let em manhandle it. I used to tell the Sergeant... Goidman, "Show me you want gun", I said "just do that" So I used to circle round and put gun where he'd showed me. Now others used to let them unhook it and manhandle it in position but I did it wi' Carrier.

Which made more sense really didn't it to do it that way?

It was just as easy to turn round once he'd shown you there, that were it.

It was pointing in the direction of where he wanted it to go.

Between them lines

What was your first impressions of getting over there and your first thoughts when you got there Reuben?

Well, I mean, everybody was trigger happy because nobody knew what were happening did they? That were Boardman what said he would put me on a charge because I wouldn't shoot at them Germans running across, you know.

When was this?

It were soon on. There was some Germans running along the wall, they were making for a....a wood. And sergeant put his gun up and it wouldn't work, so he said "Wharmby, shoot them". I said "no, if I shoot em, they'll only shoot back. He said "You're on a charge. You're on a charge in t'morning". I said "And you're on a charge and all, your gun's not working"

This was the sergeant and you told him, he's on a charge as well?

Yes, because he were in trouble, his gun always had to be working. I said "You're on a bigger charge because his gun no..."

So did you ever hear any more about that?

No, well, he couldn’t do could he?

And that bloke pinched all t’things out o’ t’church. You know these things with gold sewing on?

And he got wounded and as he were carrying em away. He weren’t wounded bad. Carrying em away he said “Look after me loot Wharmby” So first church thatI come to, I took em all in there, put em back in church

Put them back in

They were them cloths with all gold writing on. Gold cotton yes.

Let’s just go back to those first positions where you were, where you put your guns and so on. Was there any action around there?

Oh aye, yes, they were always shelling but it were funny, you got used to em. When they were going, you knew they were going over, you know, you could tell by the sound as they weren’t landing here, so you got that used to em. Now I used to like being at front ‘cause when you were in HQ. I used to come up with rations, I got moved to HQ for some reason, not long. When I used to come with ration, I’d give em t’ration and they’d start shelling. Now all these blokes had dug a trench, and they were all in t’trench, but they hadn’t dug a trench for t’visitors

No, that’s right

So I used to go in the Carrier

So you were exposed, if you were there, you were exposed weren’t you?

Yes

So you didn’t have anywhere to get into?

No, they’d got in their own.

So I was glad when I were moved back to t’gun

It sounds as if you mentioned you get used to this firing where the sound is.

You do

You seemed to get used to it very quickly

Yes, you do. Our shells, you can hear the coming over and you can tell. Now you knew some were dropping short because one once dropped short and killed a lot of B Company. You know.

Have you any ideas where this was Reuben, at that time and what part of France you were in?

Well, it were early on weren’t it? Where did we go?

Can you remember the name of the place that you landed at?

No. Marseilles. Did we go through Marseilles?

No. Did you see Mulberry Harbour at all? Mulberry Harbour as you were coming in?

No

No, you didn’t see that, O K.

The book said you landed at Ferlaix Courseulles. Courseulles or something like that

And then you went to an area just west of Caen

I know it was one of your first positions

And then how far is Antwerp off?

Ooh, You’re a long way from Antwerp.

This is the early part of the War, You’ve only just got there

I know that Manderly never stops along the road on t’move

Now you’ve just got there probably now about the end of June and you’re just going through, you’re going south of Normandy. Are there any other incidents around that time?

Yes, I remember there were always a lot of tanks stuck and there were one stuck on a bridge. And they had to push it off. Well, them, they had crew couldn’t get out because they pushed it off and it dropped down with turret in t’water. It weren’t so deep but enough to cover turret. Now, you see, nobody could do anything about it , they were just shoving it out o’ t’way.

And that was the early part of the war?

Just after you got there?

You see,there are places around there. If I could give you names they might jog your memory. There was a hill there that was known as Hill...

Hill 122, Hill 122, 112, 112

Which was around that area?

And we had a trench there what we had to stop anybody going in. There were two officers killed. And Germans had a gun set on that trench. And two officers who were visitors, they jumped in there and Germans fired and killed one and another come, killed him. I’m not sure if there weren’t three officers killed so they banned that trench.

Oh, in the same trench

Yes, They must have had a gun lined up on it

And that was, you can remember that happened near this hill, Hill 112?

Yes, that was at Hill 112

On the Hill 112?

There were other places there. There were chateaus, one or two chateaus around

Yes, a chateau. They used one of them for a HQ, that chateau. Upstairs there were boxes and boxes of brand new pots what had never been opened. All good pottery, you know. Dozen minerals of the boxes.

This was in France?

Yes. They were up in t’attic

O K . Then from that sort of general area. Can you remember moving on anywhere from that general area

So in Holland. Is it Holland

You’re in France now

Ah, but where do we go next

Well, from here you go up into Belgium, Holland

Holland, I remember that because that were. We were at a farm there and I’ve never been as embarrassed in my life. And there were a stall with pigs in. And last stall was a toilet, just a bucket and an earth toilet. And daughter, she must have wanted to go and she come and lean on pig sty while I were on toilet. Ooh. I never felt so rough in my life

I’m trying to remind you of some of the places in France that you were in because Holland all comes later on and whether you got any that you can remember the places in France. At this time you were moving down towards a place called Falaise

Falaise Gap, I remember that. There was two big banks up. We went up this road here and there was two big banks as high as window and there was horses on there with carts. Dead. They’d been shot and fell over. And talk about smell. And all t’way up there was this horrible smell of horses. I remember that. And we were going up there and what a relief when we got to the end of it because it were all t’way up.

And you were driving a Carden Loyd. So how did you drive your Carden Loyd through all this?

They were on t’grass. You see there were a big grass flat before it rose up, so they were on this flat part where they rolled over on t’flat. Each side there was a flat at bottom of hill, you know, so they were on that

And Falaise, that was thought to be round the second or third week in August something like that. And then, I know, the best way probably , is to remind you of places that you went to and you might then be able to remember what you were doing in those places. When you went to Falaise, you started then moving towards Holland. The first big place you came to. I don’t know if you remember going over the River Seine or the River Somme

Yes. Weren’t it a Bailey bridge? I think it was because I’ve got an envelope full of suggestions what I put in at Turners. I used to get paid for suggestion and a bloke invented these. An engineer, and they were great big heavy rollers and I said there were more metal here than what there was on t’Bailey bridges. And it said Bailey bridges on ‘t. Everybody called it Bailey Bridge after. Because I said there were more metal in it than there were on t’Bailey Bridge.

But you do remember going over the Somme?

Yes. Boats all fastened together

The Bailey bridge.

And they had those on the Somme and Seine, you say?

Yes, I think them were on the Seine, yes. It were a wide river. There was all these boats together.

At this stage you are moving on up towards…. You mentioned Antwerp earlier.

Does that mean you can remember what was happening around Antwerp?

Yes. Didn’t they flood it. Didn’t Germans flood it.

Well, they may have done

I think they flooded Antwerp, one part of it. They bursted a dam somewhere and flooded one part of Antwerp.

In the dock area wasn’t it?

One part were flooded. I remember them saying they flooded one part of Antwerp.

Is there much in the way of action that you can recall at this time?

Oh aye. Oh aye. There was shelling all t’time. It didn’t stop so often. I remember one night, I dont know where we were, but it were shelling all day and all night. Shelling and shelling. And er, ooh it were terrible. All night it were going on and you could hear em going past you know That were us firing. But that were best thing I ever saw in t’army where me and Fergie had to go up that road. There were a river; now I don’t know which river that was and Scottish Regiment wanted to cross and they couldn’t cross because Germans were there and they couldn’t cross. Now what we did; me and Fergie were detailed to go up this road in bottom gear and we used to go up , and he’d come down and I’d go up and he’d come down. And we did that from about 6 o’clock until 6 next morning. Just me and him, up and down. I’ve got a paper. I’ve been looking for it somewhere. And just as I’d turned round and were coming back on me last trip, they started shelling that area. Ooh, they didn’t half bomb it and what they thought that was the only thing as I say, what worked in t’army. Germans must have thought as there were a lot of armoured vehicles being moved up ‘cause we were in bottom gear and they made a lot of noise in bottom gear and I mean with going up and down, up and down all night. So they thought as we’d got a lot of armoured vehicles and when I turned round; ooh, that area, they didn’t half shell it. But with them moving all that up, these Scotch men got across.

Yes. What time of year was that. What was the weather like? We’ll try and find out where it was.

Yea, I know it was a. I wonder where it was. Time of year I know were eves. But I know it were only me and Fergie did it.

Can you remember whether it was Summer time or Winter time or?

Well, it must have been more Winter because I think we started at 6 o’clock at night when it were dark, and we were doing it till next morning

So. Was there snow on the ground?

No. It were funny where’s that area where we’d been; they didn’t half shell that, and that was the only thing I saw what worked

You see, you were around in November you were around the Maas, the River Maas.

Yes, I wonder if it were Maas. I know that and we couldn’t see river from where we were. I think it were area or something just behind hill. Anyway Regiment got across. I had a paper somewhere about me and Fergie during that

We left this at Antwerp. Antwerp is September at this stage when you were up in Antwerp. Apart from it being flooded, is there anything else you can remember about Antwerp. Or what was happening then?

No

That’s early September

Me and me laddo, Fergie, when they was sleeping in Carriers and what not, we always managed to get in somebody’s house and they used to make us very welcome. It were very rare when we roughed it. We thought we could get. We could charm birds out of trees.

Fergie. Because we can’t talk too loud can we because Alice is outside.

And, she were called, er, Martini. There’s a drink called Martini isn’t it? She said you’ll always remember my name, like the drink, my name Martini. O K Martini.

I think the best way is if I mention some names to you, and some places, in order of sequence of where you were going because the name might remember them. Antwerp it was September then about the middle of September, Arnhem happened and the First East Lancashire Regiment.

Was that Arnhem where they brought some Yanks and we had t’go? We had to go and relieve em?

No. I’ll tell you what Arnhem was. Arnhem was where they dropped the parachutes on the bridges.

Oh. We stood watching them. Hundreds were coming down, we say them. What’s that other place were they go through Yanks and they sent us.

That’s Ardennes

Ardennes

I’ll remind you of places as they go in logical sequence at times. So in September it was Arnhem and you said you remember these...

Parachute dropping, yes

Anything else you remember about then

Aye, and we saw them being shot and all as they come down

Were these American parachutists

I don’t know, they were in t’distance. You know. We could stand and watch them and you could see when they were shot. You know it started it started going all over t’place.

Anything else around that time?

Well, from that area in September, that’s about the third week in September, a bit later on towards the end of October, you were in a town called ‘s-Hertogenbosch

Oh aye, I go to town on t’line was ‘s-Hertogenbosch Catherdral

What can you remember of ‘s-Hertogenbosch then?

Well, we pulled up near railway. railway were over there and we pulled up here and we all moved into houses, you know. Eh and women let us sleep on their beds and they’re sat on chairs and everything and used chamberpot, all through t’night and we didn’t bother. It didn’t matter to us, we don’t bother. And we were in that cellar.

Is this in ‘s-Hertogenbosch?

Yes. I were consoling t’civilians

Looking after civilians?

Trying to tell ‘em “You’ll be alright, we’re here”

You’d come to save them.

Do you remember any of the fighting that was around there?

Well, yes. They shelled. There were a big garage with a glass roof and they shelled that and they smashed that up to smithereens. And we were only father down the road.

At this stage, are you in the support company?

Yes, all time. Where did we go when we went up railway bank on t’sleepers? That was at

‘s-Hertogenbosch. Eh, and it were rough because them vehicles they were made for soft ground and banging over sleepers, it were knocking heck out of ‘em. We went there because they found out there were mines up grass. There were t’railway bank, then a wall and then field were here and they found out there were mines there so we went up railway line. And they said on that day, East Lancs took born to that. Took born to ‘s-Hertogenbosch.

When you got over those, sleepers were they?

Yes, railway sleepers

When you got over those, into the town, what happened then?

Well, we had to park somewhere in town, somewhere where we could put guns In position. Soon as you stopped anywhere, guns were in position. Have you seen that big island? A photo of a big island and there is a gun in t’middle of it. Well, I towed that gun there, to t’middle, and then I had to go under hedge or somewhere and tow me net over; camouflage it; and it were Johnson and Harris and Ronnie Carter were on that gun, I can just make them out.

Do you remember seeing any of the fighting that was going on in ‘s-Hertogenbosch?

Not really because they were doing it from far back. There were a bit of street fighting went on but I think they was retreating more. Shells were coming hard over, far away, farther back

You saw this street fighting going on then?

Yes. And I seen some of them coming down the street

53 years is a long while to remember isn’t it? And I can’t remember because…

I’m just trying to get you through the places if you remember specifically about the places

You see, I don’t know why, but I never seemed to take anything serious, I don’t know.

There were all these serious things going on around you at the time

Yes, of course there were. But you were all blokes there. I mean a bloke saw me 34 years after, in Asda. His daughter married somebody near Wigan and he come to me and he said to me “Are you Benny Wharmby?, I said “Yea”. He said “I’m not used to this he says, but I was dead sure it were you”. Well, I mean, I was dressed with a cap on. He says “I knew it were you”. I said to him, I says “How the heck do you remember me, I don’t remember you” He says “I always remember you, you stood out in t’army”. And Jimmy Murthwaite what had his arm round me all night, he were t’same

These were people who were in the, in your regiment.

Yes, they were all, they were gunners. They was young men what was replaced, dead ones.

So, at ‘s-Hertogenbosch, you put a gun into a roundabout?

It were a big roundabout, with a grass top.

And then you go to cover up your vehicle. What do you do then?

Well, I usually got meal ready. If it were dinner time, I got meal ready. I used to do cooking for t’gun crew.

Yes, so that was your job really

Yes driving and that, I mean Gun crew wanted to be on t’gun, they needed five men on t’gun.

You didn’t help with the gun crew then?

No, no

Is there anything else you can remember about ‘s-Hertogenbosch ?

I wonder where it was when that bloke, they never found out if someone set detonators off or if somebody trod on em.

That was earlier

Oh, were that earlier?

It was at a place called Niort in Normandy

There were a lot killed there.

Do you remember that?

Yes because

Were you there?

I was in there. And Boardman come, sergeant, over me gun. He said “Get gun hooked up, we’ve got go to Corporal…...I forget his name. His gun has been wiped out”. But he hadn’t been shot. This shell hit his ammunition. All his boxes were there. And this shell hit ammunition. Well all that blew up, and blew all five up and gin and all. So, luckily, they said “right, we’ve got to go and replace Ollerton’s gun”. Ollerton, he were called. So we went from there and put this gun in position where he were. And next morning, we went back to there and found out about all these dead. Now I’d have been there only for going and replacing that gun. So that’s how it works.

You said detonators didn’t you, you did say detonators

A bloke always felt responsible because ration did come up and he wanted a box for his tea. They dish your tea in it, and he wanted a box. And he emptied these detonators under t’wall so they never knew if somebody trod on em or if somebody, sun set em off.

Well we know the date of that. That was in a place called Noron-l’Abbaye near Mieux

It made that bloke ill really because I think he felt ….

This is in Thys near Thys and it was about August the 15^th but at the moment you’re in ‘s-Hertogenbosch and this is about October 23^rd, 24^th

So, in ‘s-Hertogenbosch, was there anything else you wanted to remember there.

Well, only this fighting, because they didn’t give up you know, they did a lot of shelling in

‘s-Hertogenbosch, they didn’t give up easy. They used to retreat and rebuild and then they’d start again. You’d think it, they’d gone because everything were quiet and then all of a sudden….You know, they’d been reforming. And another trick they had; they used to withdraw all the troops and leave perhaps a dozen men in t’wood, just to fire and cause a bit of trouble to take your attention while they went back and reorganised and then all of a sudden, they’d let loose again

I mean, you were in ‘s-Hertogenbosch for a few days. The book said you were there for about four or five days I think. And most of that was fighting time

Oh, it were, most of fighting there, definite. Then we moved on to somewhere else, another little village.

Can you remember what it was?

No, I remember, there were still Germans there when we went, because we pulled back into this village.

‘s-Hertogenbosch was end of October.

END REEL 2

Just to remind you, Reuben, of where you will have gone to from there after ‘s-Hertogenbosch.

‘s-Hertogenbosch, you were there about October the 23^rd, 24^th, 25^th, something like that. Then you moved down, as far as I can remember to somewhere near the Maas are.

They were still shelling hard because that little village, they were shelling hard because, all these blokes used to run in t’house, and there were two blokes with little faces and they were always at back of t’women. There’s rumour here, when they were shelling they all run in that corner and these two were just at the back.

What were the women doing there?

Well, they’d all run there out of t’shelling into t’house and bloke were always at back of women.

That was the Maas though wasn’t it?

Yes, that was the village

But this was also the place where earlier you said you were driving the Carden Loyds up and down?

Yes. From 6 ‘til 6 it were

And that was, you say, I think that was to make the Germans think there was..

Yes, and it worked, because you see, Scots couldn’t cross. Now, as soon as I turned round on my last trip down, Eric had stopped because he’d gone down and I’d gone up, and turned round and I’d just got going down and this shelling started, you know, and they didn’t half bombard it over there. So they must have thought, a lot of tracked vehicles had gone up, armoured cars, and they really shelled it. But while that were going on, Scots team went across river.

Yes, I mean, I don’t know if you can remember much more what was happening down there because I think you were down that part for a little while. But the weather would have been November weather in that part of the world so I guess.

Snow

Well, no, it wouldn’t have been snow at that time of the year. It would have been wet and damp and foggy. That sort of weather I think.

You see, Germans had made these trenches, they were good ones. And they was trees, made of trees, all covered up, and then all clay covered up and grass so you just went down and you were under this clay and grass but, after all t’rain and what not you used to be in there and it used to be dripping on you. While you were asleep, dripping on you.

And that was down there by the Maas at that time was it?

Well we used a lot of their trenches after they told us to make sure there were no booby traps. They even booby trapped a car. When you lit up on you it blew it up. A bloke got killed and they said don’t touch anything. They even did a pear tree. When they got to pull a pear off, a detonator went off. Even a pear tree.

You remember that happening?

Yes I remember that lifting bonnet up and he got killed. We told them, well shouldn’t have lifted bonnet up. They did that to a car and a pear tree.

This is all around that time you think?

That was early November going two or three weeks your coming down.

Do you remember driving quite long distances for maybe two or three days

Oh aye, and all night and when we got them tracked vehicles, I said, “one thing about these, we shalln’t go to sleep”. Because you see, disc at back, where your crown wheel and pinion is, it were just a white dot and a light, a little bulb, so all you would do is watching this bulb thing jumping up and down to see on t’road. So it sent you to sleep that. Because I were following Ashcroft, now all of a sudden I see back of his Carrier go, and he’s run down bank, so I had to tow him out. He’d gone to sleep. Because that light put you to sleep. You know, with back axle doing that, well this little ball, when on t’road were doing that all t’time.

What if you were first in the queue and tell all these to follow.

No. Fergie were, Fergie, I remember this sergeant what got hurt in that belly what blew up said “right, we’re going now to somewhere and this field has been. It’s mines, and engineers have cleared a road for t’vehicles” So he says “Nobody must go beyond them gates.” So I’m following, he were first, I’m following him. When we got to this gate, sergeant pulled him up there,

Waved him on

Waved him on. I went first through that. He were leading on all the way ‘til we had to go through t’minefield.

So,did you then go first?

Yes, because I were following him. Well, when he got to gate, he told Fergie to pull in, so Fergie pulled there, he just.

Waved you on

He looked after his men

On one of these long drives because I’m just thinking that next of the story you have just told may not be related to where I’m thinking you went next because that’s some other story. Next, after the Maas, you had quite a long drive because you drove up towards the north somewhere in preparation for an operation that was called “Veritable” which was attacking the Reichwald Forest. But that got cancelled, because something happened in December; the Germans attacked the Americans in the Ardennes, so you had to go back to the Ardennes or rather in the….

Well, we pulled into an asylum there. We pulled into an asylum then. There were a village and it were an asylum, and I said “We’re in right place at last”.And we’d just got our kit off and he said “get you kit back on and get outside”. He said “They’ve broke through to the Americans and we have to go back”

Do you remember going back then?

So describe what happened when you were going back

I think there were snow there then weren’t there.

Remember going back there, remember. Describe going back there and getting back to the Ardennes.

Yes, the boat comes in, in line. As soon as we’ve landed, guns are always unlocked and put in action.

In line you say?

Well, you know, some that way, they covered area. It were six guns you see.

So you were in the Ardennes. It took you about two or three days to get there.

Yes, a fair run that was.

You remember ti?

Yes

Would you like to describe it?

Well all you do is follow. You don’t know where you’re going or what you’re doing.

Did you ever go off the road down there?

No

But lots of people did presumably?

Well, me and Fergie, never, we were there all the time.

When you got down to the Ardenne, can you remember what it was like down there?

Well, there were a lot of shelling going on there then. From when our guns started firing back, it quietened down a bit because they hadn’t got any six pounders there. I think it were only a rifle team and they broke through that. Well, when they started getting our shells, it were even more noise.

Did you see much in the way of signs of battle down there?

Aye, I mean there were a lot of Yanks killed there; a lot of Yanks

So, were there bodies around or…

Oh aye, they just lay there. But you get used to it. At first you see em and you know you’re sick. And then you don’t bother. We used to use them for landmarks. They said “if you’re going to HQ, go down to t’road and there’s a bloke with long johns on, a German with long johns.” He said “laundry must have come up. So you turn let there”.So we used bodies for landmarks.

Can you remember driving round much of the Ardennes in that snow. It was snowy then and icy. Do you remember driving round much?

Oh, they parked them, they were like a sledge. What you had to do with them, that’s why I used to like tillers, you know you could do it a little bit with a cat or in you could do this

With a wheel, yes

Well, with them, you could shunt it in see, but if they got on a hill, they’d just slide sideways because they were like a sledge. Secret was,you had to keep em in low gear and just and keep track moving.

Were you aware of the fighting that the battalion were doing down there?

Well, I remember all t’guns being put in position and firing over towards where shells were coming from.

I mean the fighting that the infantry did the rifle…

Well, they were still firing back to what they could read but I think shells were coming farther back.

So. You’re down there for a few days in the Ardennes. You stayed; I’ll remind you of some palces that were down there. There were a couple of chateaus down there, that you stayed in and while you were down there, you had Christmas Day and you had New Year’s Day. I don’t know if you remember spending Christmas or New Year….

Yes. Because we got word some of us were being used. Were we going to Viet Nam?

No, no, this would be much later on, but there were some chateaus down there in the Ardennes

I remember that because they said some were being moved there and there for in German and one bloke said “So it’s going to be a Jerry Christmas and a Jappy New Year”

I think that was probably said later on; I’ll remind you later on when that was said.

It were when we were in that asylum, before we went to Ardennes.

In the Ardennes, right, O K, we’ll talk about that later on. That one. But you see, you went up to Hamburg at the end of the war. So when the war ended, we had a Jerry Christmas and Jappy New Year. That’s what you said wasn’t it?

Yes. Somebody said that, there were always somebody.

Yes, I’m just trying to think when that could have been said. You think it was said at this time?

Yes, That’s when we had word, it shot were being. I never did found out if he did do it but that’s what were going among t’lads.

What words were they going over to….

Some of em were being moved to Viet Nam

Did they, that would be Japan, Viet Nam

I don’t think they would have been moved from the Ardennes to Japan, would they?

No I never heard any more about it. It were only lads talking about it, some were being moved to there. I never heard no more about it.

O K, So that was the Ardennes in December. You then. I’ll tell you where you moved to from the Ardennes. You went over to a place called, you might remember, a place called Huy, H-U-Y. That was in Belgium

Was. Did we have to travel back to where we’d come from?

Well, sort of in that direction.

Then from there you went to a place called Helmond.

Ring a bell?

I don’t know. No

I’ll tell youwhat you were doing in Helmond. It might jog your memory as well. In Helmond, you were training for, to go into the Reichwald Forest.

All we would be doing was maintenance on t’Carriers and gun crews would be cleaning guns and making that right; so we wouldn’t be doing anything like that, only making sure vehicles were right. That wereour job, keeping them vehicles going.

Do you remember going into the Forest, the Reichwald.

Yes, aye, all t’tops of trees were being blown off; they were shelling while we were going in.

Who was shelling, yes, who was?

Germans was shelling; you could see tops of trees being blown off. I mean, could have been some of ours shooting but you top of tree drop off.

Do you remember seeing any British guns, gun lines down that way? In the Reichwald Forest.

German guns?

No, British guns

Oh. No.

What about that wall, how did we get past that wall?

The Siegfried Line. The wall, The Siegfried Line, you’re talking about the dragon’s feet aren’t you? They weren’t in the forest. They were outside of the forest. So you went through the forest, There were none of those dragon’s feet in the forest?

I saw that wall though, somewhere.

Well, the Reichwald Forest was part of the Siegfried Line but there were no dragon’s feet there.

No, they were lower down weren’t they

They were outside of the forest.

Yes, I remember

When you were going through that forest, I mean, how did you get through the forest? Did you drive through?

Yes, Aye, and it were bad you know, because everywhere were thick and muddy and your tracks were spinning and tracks were getting on t’teeth, they were getting full of dirt, you know mud. Oh you had to keep ‘em going. Our job were to keep them tracks going.

And you kept them going, yes

We never had any trouble with that vehicle, right from setting off; once they’d pulled me out of water, from setting off, to coming home, and we parked ‘em in Hamburg. In the Oberhausen and then I think somebody come and collected ‘em there. We never saw them again

That was the end of the war. But for the moment, your in the forest. Is there anything else about that forest you can remember?

Well, I know there were a lot of shelling and banging going on. And I mean there were German trenches there we couldn’t get in. But we had to make sure there were no mines, and no booby traps.

Did you see much in the way of Germans there.

No, the only bloke what weren’t coming, there were a tank coming over, I think it were a lieutenant and a couple of soldiers and he come round corner and he met ours. Anyway they finished him off. ‘Cause I think it were shock of seeing them there.

So you go through the Reichwald forest and you get to the end of the forest which is…

Eh, it were ruining when all them trees were gone, it had blown all tops off em.

But you went in there February the 8^th and you finished in the forest about February the 13^th. Valentine’s Day was February 14^th Reuben. So did you send your wife a Valentines Day card?

No, I were too busy

So that was middle of February and then the end of February you were going through some towns called, ... Goch was one of them

Where?

Goch, Goch

No, does it ring a bell?

No, were it a village, that?

Well, It was a big town on the edge of…..a fortified town, close to the Reichwald Forest which had been badly bombed when…

Did we go there?

You went through it

Did we go through that? Oh aye, I think we did because we had a room there for HQ in that place.

It was very badly bombed

Yes and HQ set up. We stopped there a few days I think.

No, I think you just drove through it.

Did we drive through it. Well HQ got… unless they were just sorting something out.

Yes, maybe. What were you doing then was going down towards a place called Weeze

You remember Weeze

Yes, Weeze.

Any particular thoughts there?

That were only a small village weren’t it?

Weeze was a small village, and it was from Weeze that you went to a place called Geldern.

No, I don’t remember that

And Pottershoft

You see, all as happened was, they said “Right, get em going….. and line up” and all as you did was jump in your Carrier and start it, and follow that in front. You know, you didn’t know where you were going or what you were doing.

Or the times….

All the time. Nobody ever said “We’re going such a place and we’d have… you just got on the back of one and followed him.

Yes. What about, something else though that happened?

I mean temperature men had seen more than us because we were concentrating on driving, weren’t we. I mean, we were going over rubble where it had been bombed and all that, where gunners and all them could look round.

Were you still in support company at this stage?

All the time

All the time, you never went into HQ?

No, No

After that, after that, up to Pottershof. Now this, I’ll tell you when this is. It is towards the middle or end of February. Towards that time, you went… No, it’s later than that, it’s probably early March; March 2^nd of 3^rd and you went to Brussels. And you went to Brussels for rest really. Can you remember being in the Brussels area at all?

Yes, going back to Brussels, aye

You would have been there for maybe a couple of weeks

Yes, and we were in Antwerp a few weeks

Yes, but what about Brussels? Can you remember?

Well, I remember Brussels, aye, because everybody, everybody were looking for the red lamps

But you weren’t were you?

No

Everybody else was?

What did you do in Brussels, How did you spend your time?

Well, you just hung about and we also had to do maintenance. You always had to do maintenance. And then you perhaps got an hour as you were allowed out in town but guns always had to be cleaned and oiled and Carriers had to be checked, oil and water and everything. So that were our main job when we stopped. First job were maintenance.

Yes, but how did you pas your time when you had done that maintenance?

Well, it were something new, looking round shops and what not. I bought a watch for Alice in Brussels

Right, has she still got it or..?

She’s still got it, yes.

Who did you stay with in Brussels, can you remember? Or where did you stay?

Well, of course, I slept in Carriers

Did you sleep in yours?

I put hammock up in mine, with me bonnet, you know that bonnet rug. I tied a bonnet up. Me bonnet rug, it’s a four caught I tell you when you sleep in there. But, usually we used to get somewhere. We once drove somewhere and there were a lot of limestone and my eyes were all red raw with dust, lime dust. And they were all like that, all bunged up with lime dust. I always remember and they brought a big sheet and two lorries; and they tied this sheet to two lorries and then everybody had to get in and have a bath. But me and Hay went to a lovely house and there were everything in cabinet we needed.

This was in Brussels?

Were there any shows put on, like forces shows? Variety shows, that sort?

No, we never went to any shows. We were never that long out

So, Brussels, two or three weeks and then you went down to the Rhine again, to cross over the Rhine. Remember that?

Is that where that boat got crowned when troops going across, boat went down

No, that was later on

Later on, I remember them. We crossed Rhine. That one what were pushed off bridge were well back when we pushed

Was it

Before then

Yes. Oh aye, soon after we started travelling. Eh, it were rotten that you know weren;’t it. But you see all t’vehicle were a back, you had to give them time for line up, line bridge up.

The crew were alive were they?

Yes, they hadn’t, oh aye, they just shoved him off. He was struggling trying to get it back, you know, it were shunting about. Somebody said “Shove it off”, so we just shoved off and dropped down. With it dropping down heavy, I mean water come up. Well, they couldn’t get out. But we couldn’t do ought, we had to get across.

Keep going, yes

So, the Rhine, you cant really remember going across the Rhine?

But you can remember another river, you said, where the boys got drowned

Where what?

You said you could remember another river where somebody got drowned. Did you?

Well, that was where we were crossing where a boat went over the board. And they stick some crosses on t’bank.

But do you remember that though?

I just remember they said “one of them boats had tipped over” and it were a fast flowing river so there was nothing they could do, they just drowned. I do know there were one or two boat tipped up.

….And it was something a few people

Water just, it just tipped em up

I bet it’s hard work for you i’nt it? (laughing)

No, no. But that incident then, that was, I tell you, I know the date of that, that was April the 12^th, when that happened on the Aller The river was the Aller that you were crossing then. The moment that we were going back from the Rhine. You crosses the Rhine on about March the 25^th, something like that.

Ever cross it other way, going back

Well, you only crossed it once, going towards Hamburg

Oh, so I crossed it once eh?

Going towards Hamburg, then you went up to a place called Bocholt,

Bocholt

Bocholt, B-O-C-H-O-L-T, which is where. Does the name Setrie ring any bells to you?

Setrie, aye. He was in charge, he were a daft beggar you know.

Major Setrie

Aye, he goes to that Cathedral. He once said to me. I used to borrow his truck to go down for rations. He used to lend me his truck. Oh it was. It started shelling and he says “Go and look where they’re landing”. So he sent me up to go and look for where they were landing. I didn’t go so far and come back and said “In that field up there”.

Bu you see, Setrie, Major Setrie was injured in this place called Bocholt. That’s where his war finished, he was hit by a shell

We saw him at Cathedral

He was hit by a shell, a shell went…....

He were a good because he wouldn’t, whatever he wanted to do, he’d do it as well as said. He were good that way, him

You don’t remember anybody saying about that time do you, that he’d got injured?

No, well he were a C Company didn’t bother me, couple of either way. A Company, B Company, C Company, well, they were all spread out and two guns, always went with a company. So, if they, C Company were going in to attack, two guns would go with em, but they were fair, if they were going in attack again, two more guns would go with em. Well. Sometimes you could have it easy, nothing happened; where another time, you could run into em.

From there Reuben, I’ll tell you where you went from there because that was Bocholt. But from Bocholt, I think you went to a town called Osnabrück

Oh aye, Osnabrück, yes

Remember that?

No (laughing)

I remember Osnabrück

The name rings a bell

Yes

There was a canal there

I mean, it were all the same when we landed weren’t it? All you did is follow that one in front, nobody told you where you were going. They never give you any addresses.

But there was a canal there that you went over that you probably went over again on a bridge or something I presume. Over that canal if you were driving your Carden Loyd.

So that was around…..probably early April, something like that. On April 12^th you crossed the River Aller which is where the boats went over and those boys were drowned and then you were moving towards Hamburg

Hamburg yes

Ring any bells with you?

Well, I know we were in Hamburg but I don’t remember….

But you remember going into Hamburg

No

You don’t

You see, all they said were “right line up”, so we lined up and they didn’t say you were going to Hamburg

We’re now in Hamburg Reuben. Can you remember much about Hamburg?

Well this big boat with whisky Bols, is it Bols, B-O-L-S and Johnny Geldart were drinking that much whisky, he were like this

Shaking?

He couldn’t hold anything, and I used to like that Bols, it were good. But we were guarding it, stop anybody pinchin it

Could you pinch it yourself

(laughter)

Well, it sounds as though you were drinking some of it as well as you were guarding it.

When you were in Hamburg around that time, That’s when the war ended. Do you remember anybody saying

Yes, as war’s finished. They signed paper. I remember them saying that.

How did you feel then?

Well I dunno. You didn’t jump up and down because you didn’t know what were happening. Nobody told you nothing, you were just a number – 339

Yes, but were you relieved at all, that the war had finished?

I don’t remember being relieved at all, you just got used to it

You posted your card off to your wife

Yes. Well, she’d had a card from there when I could write. I used to send her Dutch cards, them with little boys on

(Alice talks at this point about receiving cards and says that the first thing he did when he came home was to burn them all)

I don’t want anybody to read these

you shouldn’t have bothered

I said “I’ll be shot”

So that was the end of the war in Hamburg, you cant remember much of that?

No. I do remember somebody saying “War’s over” But nobody seemed bothered because you didn’t know much about it did you. Where it was signed and all that, we were well back weren’t we. We knew. We didn’t know it were over for a while ‘til they started, you know, putting us up in Hamburg and what not.

So, can you remember where you moved to from Hamburg? Was it where the riding school was or something?

I don’t know where we went from Hamburg. How many miles did we do? It said in here how many miles we’d travelled.

Well, I don’t know

We did a lot of miles, it’s in here I think.

A lot of miles

So what can you remember next, after the war ending Reuben?

Well, we started having leave then. Giving us leave, and I mean we got. We used to come home on leave then.

And they started de-mobbing us in rotation. And there were an officer, there were a sergeant, he were a sergeant, he were from Blackburn. He were with a girl, a German girl and he passed police station and curfew were on. Because he were a sergeant and….

You were just telling a story about a sergeant there Reuben

This sergeant were walking down street when the curfew were on and he were passing police station and police come out and grabbed him like and got him inside and he started fighting and scalling. Anyway, next news I saw, he were stripped, everything. So all them years he’d been, and he’d come from Bolton and he used to do boxing like. So I said “have you always done boxing?”, he said “We were brought up on blood and resin”

So, what did you say, he lost all of his positions?

He lost everything. He were stripped to a private. He was on guard when I come, and he was a sergeant.

When you came for what, For your demob?

Yes, I were having my demob. It were him actually, what made me a corporal.

Sorry, when did you get made up corporal. I missed that in your……

You didn’t tell me when you were made up to be a corporal Reuben. When was that roughly?

Ooh, when were that. I think it was Oberhausen

Oberhausen, after the war, about the time you, almost, demob time?

And he sent me, a finding HQ, because they were going to search in this village. So I went and found a place where they could sleep, put up. So when officer came back, he said “Who the hell made him up?”.He said “I sent him on a job and he did a good job” he said. So he weren’t that. So first time, I mounted guard. I couldn’t stand me feet and shout “Attention” and all that, so I went and changing guard and I said to Eric, office window were here and we’re changing guard here. I said “Don’t watch me Eric”, I said, “I’ll shall only make a mess of it”. He said “I wouldn’t miss this if it were three o’clock in t’morning”. An believe it or not, he’s been killed in a motor accident now this bloke. This sergeant major, he was stood behind a tree telling me what to say. Telling me what to say “Attention, right turn and quick march”. And he was telling me behind a tree what for t’say. And later on he says; we were changing guard one and you know when you start laughing and you don’t know what your laughing at? Everybody’s laughing. Well I was changing guard and you had to. Oh God…….Everybody started laughing, I don’t know what at but we were laughing. Anyway, one of privates with guard, what were coming off and he took over and he said, right what you had to do; take a pace forward and right turn, and quick march. He did that. And an officer were watching up above and this sergeant major what were behind tree, he says “ Eh Wharmby, You’d better send that strip in tomorrow.” He said “If you hand it in you won’t lose your proficiency pay”

And so what happened, did you hand the stripe in?

I got stripped and there were vehicles running all over place on my signature. It were a racket.

And then you got de-mobbed?

De-mobbed from then

What time, when was this, what year?

February 26^th, I think.

Of which year Reuben

‘46

(Yes, about 45, war ended – Alice)

‘46. February’46. And I went through New Mills, where I lived, to Catterick. And they give be a long overcoat, and a trilby and shirt like a butchers slop. And a pinstripe suit. I wrote back “I says, I’ve been in t’army six years and I’ve got a butcher’s shirt and a pinstripe suit”. Anyway, they sent me another didn’t they?

So they changed it?

They changed it me

So did you then go back to your fruit business?

No, No. After that, Billy said “What you going to do, are you going to start again”. I said “No”, because shops had been taken. Shop what we had, where we lived, it had been turned into hairdressers and me mother had moved out of shop where she was, into cottage next door. And she’d sold me lurry. So he said “Do you want to come Ferodo’s until you decide? So I said “Yes” and he got me a job at Ferodo and I were there, 25 year, were it?

What’s Ferodo’s

(Well that were nineteen… forty six. And you came here in 1951 – Alice)

So that’s how long

‘46 -’51, five years

Five years. So I did five years at Ferodo, then I got moved to here and I’ve done twenty five and a half. Twenty five and a half here.

So Ferodo’s, what is that? Brake people?

No, Chapel-en-le-Frith, where they used to make brake linings

Make brake linings, yes big brake people, but

And we made seat belts for cars.

But after that what did you do, here you say

I got moved to here

Doing what?

Training paint men

( He transferred rubber to here – Alice)

Oh, I see

They had rubber in Rochdale and rubber in Manchester, at Trafford Park and they’d rubber in Chapel, so they moved all rubber to here. So, like I come here, only as a trainer-up, training new men and paint men, you know, you’d just train them and then they’d say “I’m going back, I’d rather be in pit than here”

So, Reuben, you’re out of the army now and your life is up to date basically, you’re now retired. You retired a few years ago. How old are you now Reuben?

In August, 85

Well, when we come here, my son was an electrician and it were just time when there wee five amp plugs and everybody were having electric fires and electric kettles and five amp plug and wiring wouldn’t stand it. So me and him, we started putting plugs in, these thirteen amp, all over. Now our insurance bloke come and asked if we’d put him a light in his staircase and a socket somewhere and after that we was up there putting plugs in for six months

(That were after you’d worked – Alice)

Oh, aye, that were after I’d worked. I used to go with him at six o’clock and we were out ‘til ten at night. And then when Coronation Street were on and we were taking floorboards up they said “Can you stop a bit now, Coronation Street’s on”. So we had to knock off until Coronation Street had gone off

Just go back to this period between your army period if you like, in France and so on. I know it’s a long time age, an awful long time ago, and people, not everybody the same, and some people can remember dates and times, and other people can’t. You don’t remember those places and dates and times obviously.

Not in army, no

But, how would you sum up your, that time in the army? Reuben, I mean, I know you, I’ve talked to you many times before. You’ve got a great sense of humour.

Well, there were always somebody, no matter how bad it were, there were always somebody, said something. We were ready from ( Here Alice interjects but her comments are difficult to hear)

Yes, Reuben mentioned that earlier. Alice, Alice, Reuben mentioned that earlier. This was the chap that said to you, he remembered you because the way you were, your character and so on. So he wasn’t necessarily fa…...

I remember one time, we were stopped, waiting to go in action, and there were a bloke, he was playing a flute and we were all round his Carrier, Fergie’s Carrier, we were ready for going in action and he’s playing this flute. Fergie says “give us a tune” and we were ready for moving on. Sergeant Major come and said “What the bloody hell’s going off here”, he says. Fergie says “He’s just giving us a tune” Sergeant.

You see, I’m trying to get you back to some of the things you told me before, which we’ve got on tape, and I know, one of the things you said to me before was about, you know, you and your rifle and so on, and the way that you were always very eager and keen to fire it at people. Is that right Reuben?

(laughter)

No. I never shot at anybody. But I got a. I did my job, I got a gun there for that. There were Germans running across. Now Johnson, with grey hair shooting em like a, bad thing, you know, like a fairground. Well, I mean, they might have been enemy, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t do that. I always got others there ready. I couldn’t do that. Now I once had that German on me Carrier. On front of me Carrier, there’s a tool box.(finds photograph) See that? That’s a tool box.

Across the front yes.

Across there. You were supposed to have one spade, one spade, one pick and another, that were all you were allowed. It were like Wimpey’s moving off with that. (laughs) We’d about four spades each, because as soon as we jumped off, we were digging. They took us out digging you know, in Morecame, digging trenches. Well, you only took about that much and you didn’t do it but it didn’t take you long to dig there.

When those shells were coming over you said.

I remember night where, he were digging a trench, we were doing it in turns. I’d done a turn and Murthwaite were doing a turn and they started shelling, and Murthwaite, he were leaned over t’spade. There were about six on top of us and spade were going and that’s him what said “Gi’ me a bob”

Right, thank you Reuben for doing that.

I don’t know, I hope you don’t get me court marshalled (laughing)

I don’t think so.

This interview was conducted by Bob Watkins for the Imperial War Museum

Reuben Wharmby served in the 1^st Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment

Reuben’s first home was in Furness Row (Canal Row), later known as Lake View. Here, probably at No 7 was his mother’s shop. Narrowboat families were regular customers. They later moved to the house alongside the canal bridge, the former beerhouse known as the Jolly Rodger or Travellers Call. The trade in greengroceries continued until sometime in the late ‘30s or early 40s.

The dialogue doesn’t explain where Reuben was living after the war. He might well have returned to New Mills. Ferodo had become a subsidiary of Turner and Newall in 1927 and they had a number of factories around Britain. New factories were opened after the war including one at Hindley Green in 1949. It might have been to this location that Reuben Wharmby transferred in 1951. Reuben was 85 at the time of the interview in 1999. We don’t know when either he, or his wife Alice, died.

The recordings may be listened to or downloaded from the Imperial War Museum Archive at:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018207

This interview was conducted by Bob Watkins for the Imperial War Museum

Reuben Wharmby served in the 1^st Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment

Birth registered 1914 – Hayfield – Reuben Scott Wharmby – Mother’s maiden name: Scott

Marriage registered Sept 1937 – spouse Alice Collier

Alice Collier born Jul-Sept 1916 Mother’s maiden name - Hurley

Reuben’s first home was in Furness Row (Canal Row), later known as Lake View. Here, probably at No 7 was his mother’s shop. Narrowboat families were regular customers. They later moved to the house alongside the canal bridge, the former beerhouse known as the Jolly Rodger or Travellers Call. The trade in greengroceries continued until sometime in the late ‘30s or early 40s.

The dialogue doesn’t explain where Reuben was living after the war. He might well have returned to New Mills. Ferodo had become a subsidiary of Turner and Newall in 1927 and they had a number of factories around Britain. New factories were opened after the war including one at Hindley Green in 1949. It might have been to this location that Reuben Wharmby transferred in 1951. Reuben was 85 at the time of the interview in 1999. We don’t know when either he, or his wife Alice, died.

The recordings may be listened to or downloaded from the Imperial War Museum Archive at:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018207